Legions first approved Death Trooper

[Moxxxie]

@StormtrooperGuy - Thank you for your points of clarification.

I dont think anybody is criticising the quality of the costume. It's clear that time and effort has been invested in making sure that the costume looks like it's stumbled/shambled/crawled right out of the comics. Nor are we disagreeing with the three references that are required.

You haven't touched on the last, and most important qualifier. Allegiance.

I am pointing out that the three references DO NOT indicate that Zombies have an allegiance to the Empire. As far as I am aware, Zombies are not sentient and are driven by the urge to eat human brains. Without sentience, you cannot have allegiance, therefore I STRONGLY oppose the inclusion of this costume as part of the 501st.

I think this iteration is an awesome replica - and I would be happy to troop alongside this costume at any convention. It would be perfect for any Halloween costume! I think the maker has done a wonderful job. I just cant see any compelling reason to include it in the 501st Legion.

[Torment]

Allegiance.

I have to ask a devil's advocate question to this as well. What allegiance do Tuskens have or Jawas? For that matter what when we think of Boba Fett. He only has a money bond. His entire back story is filled with him fighting against the empire as it is with it.

Allegiance to the Empire itself is not so much a quality as much as representing the bad guys of the Star Wars Universe. We have so many different characters who really have nothing to do will allegiance, but more to do with being a bad guy. A'sharrd Hett is another character who has no allegiance to the Empire when he is Hett. We accept him as well. Deliah Blue from Legacy. Has no allegiance to anybody but Cade and last year was accepted into the legion.

Reality is we are looking at "bad guys" and not empire. The legion would be very very bare if we only looked at the empire.

[stormtrooperguy]

To the point of allegiance, we've long since passed the point of Empire vs. Rebellion in the 501st. Wampas, tuskens, jawas, Ephant Mon, clones, etc... all have questionable at best allegiance but have been added because they are "bad guys".

In Galaxies their characters are listed as Imperial, for whatever that is worth.

I think a lot of this depends on the sorts of troops you do. I've been in the 501st for 8 years now and my garrison has only done 2-3 hospital visits.

The hospitals in Boston don't want Star Wars any which way, zombie or no.

We troop at a 4-5 conventions a year where this sort of thing is perfectly acceptable.

If your garrison does more of the hospital type stuff it makes sense that you'd be less inclined toward the horror side of Star Wars.

Earlier in the year I lobbied for adding Rav Bralor, a Mandalorian character. I am NOT a fan of the Karen Traviss books or the Mando subculture that's sprung up around it at all, but the character matched the guidelines we set up so it felt fair to add it.

Regarding the undersuit...

The Galaxies character model this is based on has undamaged underarmor, which is why I left mine clean. I tried to stay pretty faithful to that CG model, even in areas that made little sense like bandages on the shoulder.

But, I think that that would make a great addition to the suit! I've got plenty of spare sets of underarmor so sacrificing one wouldn't be bad.

I'm in the process of sculpting a facial prosthetic to upgrade the mask that's built into the helmet. I want to be able to move my mouth freely when I'm in it. When I cast the face I'll likely also cast up some body parts to put under the under armor.

[Tirilia]

Ok,
So lets say a Death Trooper (aka zombie) is considered bad because it acts in a bad way.. so can be called a bad guy and thus part of the 501st banner. It has no allegiance to anyone/anything, and isnt acting on the will of another. Relatively non-sentient or at least sub-sentient, but intrinsic badness shines through.

My thought then is how far this opens up the field for other creatures and critters of the universe.. Just to clarify, anything that can claim to be bad natured (with cannon evidence and three references), could be accepted on those grounds?

And best of luck adding some extra detail to the undersuit.. Look forward to seeing the full finished product

[stormtrooperguy]

Each submission would be looked at case-by-case. I think that's consistent with how, say, the Wampa was added. The wampa has no allegiance, is semi-sentient, but was admitted on its general badness.

He was reviewed for construction and "badness" and came up good on both sides.

We get a ton of new character submissions. Each one runs through that policy that Jason reference earlier. If it meets the requirements as a character, then we look at the execution of the suit.

[cobra]

The 501st Legion, the world's definitive Imperial, not bad guys, Costuming Orgainisation.

The similarity placed on the approval process for the TKC, Incinerator, Nova trooper and Zombie Trooper is accurate, to the point of having the 3 references. Where the similarity ends, is all except the Zombie Trooper work for the Empire and are Imperial and rightly belong in the Legion.

I appreciate the work on the build, It is indeed a novelty and belongs at conventions and Halloween events, or other Zombie related events, but it should not part of the Legion.

You may want to reopen the discussion on the 'Hive of Villainy' as the costume might be better suited there.

Rick

[TheWolf]

You may want to reopen the discussion on the 'Hive of Villainy' as the costume might be better suited there.
Rick

Upon reading this thread, this is exactly what I was thinking.
There is a lot of characters of questionable alliegence, or of none.

The perfect reason to have the hive detachment.

[muppet]

Each submission would be looked at case-by-case. I think that's consistent with how, say, the Wampa was added. The wampa has no allegiance, is semi-sentient, but was admitted on its general badness.

He was reviewed for construction and "badness" and came up good on both sides.

We get a ton of new character submissions. Each one runs through that policy that Jason reference earlier. If it meets the requirements as a character, then we look at the execution of the suit.

Will be interesting to see the Bith Cantina Band application come thru (as discussed here http://501st.com.au/forum/showthread.php...7#pid43577) I dont much about them, maybe their music is that "bad" they will be 501st approved

[stormtrooperguy]

The Hive of Villainy discussion isn't really closed... It's actively being discussed in a variety of venues. Unfortunately I can't really say more at this time.

In the case of the Deathtrooper, both FISD and Spec Ops actively wanted it in their ranks. They ended up agreeing on FISD due to the fact that it was white armor at its base. So even if the Hive had passed it would have been 3rd in line.

As we've discussed there are a LOT of characters in the 501st with no "Imperial" allegiance: A'Sharad Hett, Jawa, Tusken Raider, Bib Fortuna, Ephant Mon, Gammorean Guard, Wampa, Nihilus, Revan, etc... We could argue that the clones are loyal to the pre-Empire, and that the Sith owned the empire, but in the end the transition from "Imperial" to "Bad Guy" happened years ago.

I joined in 2003 with a tusken raider and they've never indicated any sort of Imperial allegiance. Not everyone is a fan of that, but it's something that's long since past done.

I've noticed that each garrison has its own sort of normal. For instance, in the NEG it's EXTREMELY rare to have more than 1 stormtrooper at an event and we often have events where we can't get a Vader to troop. But we'll have a dozen clones and 4-5 misc. EU characters. Other garrisons are all stormy, all the time.

Depending on what we consider "normal" locally, things either seem extremely odd or perfectly normal.

I'm sorry that some of you don't feel that these are appropriate for the Legion. There are many who make the same argument about Clones, Legacy characters, Bounty Hunters, and really all of the EU.

We can only try our best to make choices based on measurable criteria and not personal opinions.

[Rents]

Nihilus and Revan are Sith Lords aren't they, therefore that would align them with the Imperials wouldn't it?
Plus they're in actual Star Wars games.

[stormtrooperguy]

Nihilus and Revan are Sith Lords aren't they, therefore that would align them with the Imperials wouldn't it?

Maybe? It's fuzzy, since they are well before the Empire. If we are to be truly Imperial only, I would think we'd have to start from the moment Palpatine declared the senate dead, and eliminate all of the denizens.

What's more Imperial? A Sith thousands of years older than Palpatine, a desert dwelling scavenger, a snow monster or a zombie stormtrooper?

It is an interesting topic. I used to be an all Imperial, all the time type with no interesting the EU. Eventually I warmed up to the larger world that was out there.

Plus they're in actual Star Wars games.

So are these

Star Wars Galaxies: Game Update 14 Death Troopers
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/posts...id=1008376

This is basically how this discussion played out in the GML/LMO discussion forums. It's been being talked about for over a year now, starting in June 2010 when the first applicants came in.

The only thing these guys have going against them that other characters in the Legion don't is that they are gross. Otherwise they are pretty well consistent with prior precedent.

[Rents]

All the old Sith lord look awesome
Revan, Malek, Nihilus, Brood

[SuperAzza101]

Is this being discussed on other garrison forums as well or are we a speciality?

[Kev Vader]

Is this being discussed on other garrison forums as well or are we a speciality?

Dunno about that Azza.

I would encourage all the Redbacks to contribute to this active discussion if they so wish, but a gentle reminder that it is in a 'Public Access' thread so can be seen by all

[hopfot]

Been reading through the pages at what everyone has to say and I still hold to my expression of...


... partly because I really don't care.

However, I feel I may give a point of view now that I am forming one. I am happy to see the Legion spanning further out into the EU, in fact I would like to see something of a "Generic Sith", they have Generic Jedi in the Rebellion, (yes I know this is not the rebellion, no need to bash me over the head with it). But it would be nice, especially with the releases of Kotor and Kotor 2 and now The Old Republic. The guidlines are out there, they just need to be written and accepted. Just as with this wonderful work of art, although part of FISD or Spec Ops... NO, it should be a 'Hive of Villinay' costume, and when that detachment is created (Yes I hold hope that it will still come to be). Then I would like to see this costume moved into there, and maybe given a ZT or DT for its ID code.

And I may just comment of the argument of "Imperial" or "Empire" relation of a costume in relation to the pointed out Jawas and Tuskens. Yes Tuskens are bad and even though not affiliated with the an "Empire" or "Imperials" They still belong just as much as any bounty hunter... but what about Jawas? Are they "bad" because they took possession of a piece of equipment seamanly left to wander the desert??? Or are they "bad" because no-one likes them and calls them "Filthy creatures"??? From what I know they made a deal with Luke Skywalker and his Uncle in much the same way a bounty hunter deals with the Empire. They traded services for cash with someone who is a ultimately a Rebel, therefore supporting the Rebellion. AND it is known that the Empire attacked and killed many of them for it AND tried to blame it on the Tuskens. PROVING that the Empire opposed both species, yet they are both still accepted in the 501st. My point here is, you can't deny the deathtrooper or anything of the 'Hive and Villinay' without denying that which is already in, such as the Jawas, Tuskens and Bounty Hunters.

And one final remark on the whole of costuming, I joined the 501st Legion to have FUN, I joined the Rebel Legion to have FUN, I joined the Mandos to have FUN. If I ever build a Star Wars costume not yet apart of any group and perhaps despised by some. I wont necessarily be doing to it to gain the approval of my peers and having it added to list of one of these groups I will be doing it to for...

FUN

Is this being discussed on other garrison forums as well or are we a speciality?

Dunno about that Azza.

I would encourage all the Redbacks to contribute to this active discussion if they so wish, but a gentle reminder that it is in a 'Public Access' thread so can be seen by all

I like to think that we're all special :P